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2002-age 25I got married in August and though it was a great wedding in hindsight the signs that it was doomed were there. The soon-to-be-wife and I fought a lot especially as the wedding approached. Two years before that my beat friend and I got into a HUGE contend that was comfort affecting my life with feelings of guilt and uncertainty. I’ve come to terms with that measure now but I was comfort was comfort a destroy in 2002. Let’s see…2002. I was living in an apartment with the gf/wife. We watched a lot of TV and spent too much time in altered states of conciousness. We also ate way too much pizza. 1997-age 20. I was recently kicked out of my parents’ house for cussing my mother out (to this day. I swear that it was justified!). I stayed at the aforementioned best friend’s house for a while; then. I moved to my girlfriend’s mother’s accommodate. I spent too much money on comic books that year if I denote. This was also the year I really started reading books on religions other than Christianity. As a consequense of this spiritual jaunt. I began dabbling in magick and I started weaning myself off of meat. I never looked approve. 1992-age 15 I was just starting high educate this year which was much exceed than junior high. Nobody wanted to beat me up in high school and my behavior that was concidered weird in junior high was now concidered “alternative.” I began listening to “alternative” music as come up and shunned top 40 radio forever. I also began to change my hair long. 1987-age 10. I think this was when my friends and I started out Max Headroom fan unify. We played a lot of Nintendo but our big thing was G. I. Joe. Looking back. I evaluate that this was the root of my writing ability: creating stories with these figures. My friends and I would act the time to verify that there was some form of narrative. I remember one bet of G. I. Joe we played in my attic that lasted a month and took a day and a half to alter for. I evaluate that this was around the time I could see the ghosts that haunted my parents’ basement. I started going to kindergarten. I evaluate but I cried a lot. I was an overly sensative child and didn’t broach with the stress of being left somewhere everyday. I met my friend Shane Davis who would later break me and join the gangs that liked beating me up. He would also go on to use a lot of drugs clean himself up then die of cancer. 1977-Age 0. I was born 2 weeks before Star Wars came out a fact that I feel is cosmically significant. I don’t bequeath anything about this year but I’ve been told that I cried a lot and I learned to talk early. My first word was “gimmie.” 2002 age 24: affix 9/11 depression. The band i was in (sunschool) went to Georgia then broke up listened to a lot of Joy Division. Saw some amazing shows that changed my life (Walkmen. Mink Lungs. Calla. Liars. Natural History lots of others.) Decided to kill myself then didn’t started dating a women i would eventually marry and subsequently divorce. Moved in with said woman and her two dogs started seriously recording my own songs and formed my bind the Ne’er Do Evers. 1997 age 19: wrote bad poetry which i took very seriously dropped acid the first time graduated high school had a summer girlfriend which is to say by sep we had broken up after that i started college in Akron met a girl i cut MADLY in like with in Columbus. She turned me on to Leonard Cohen need i say more? i spent the night with her that’s as far as it went. Broken hearted i quit school that winter dated a crazy mom drank a LOT and started working at a plastics factory made plans to move to LA and be on the streets. ended up in Cleveland instead the next year. 1992 age 14: graduate from fat kid douchebag to alter dude in junior high as a result of a bass aviate in jazz bind and the appearance of “alternative.” i was already wearing flannels and converse and growing my hair out so i guess i was a shoe-in had my first kiss and first move also first girlfriend (not the same person.) may have lost my virginity that year (or maybe the year after? anyways i moved quick..) met my friend Nathan who i don’t communicate with any more but completely shaped who i am today. Heard the Pixies through him. Heard punk rock for the first time got drunk for the first measure (40 of St Ides.) Joined a bind for the first measure. Started exhibiting self destructive impulsive and angry behavior. All in all really enjoyed myself. 1987 age 9: really don’t bequeath anything here i was really into star trek i evaluate and the Monkees. Didn’t undergo any friends i could relate to didn’t undergo like a “best friend” or anything. 2002: Age 25. The big transition year. Finished my back up run at college with my create by mental act degree and thought soon I’d have a good job and would be on the road to some kind of meaningful adulthood. Went from going to tons of shows in Cleveland to working 4-midnight making tithing envelopes in Boardman. Began drifting away from art school friends. My decline begins here. On a positive say this is the year I discovered Kool Keith and the year I started listening to more alt-country and blues. 1997: Age 20. Going Mt. Union college living by myself. In year 2 of 3 year crush on girl I never went out with. Still ridden with residual teen angst and unhappy but actually beginning to enter my ‘good times’ final arrange of college. Wondering what the hell I’m going to do with a book art degree thinking about getting a create by mental act degree after college. Hung out with populate I wouldn’t speak to at all in 1998. Stopped drawing for myself stopped flying. Still kinda into UFOs 1992: Age 15. High school. This is the year I developed my first crush. Expressed my affections in a variety of creepy and misguided fashions. Went to Canada on educate trip. Started flying lessons. Started skiing. Really into comic books and The Beatles and books about UFOs 1987: Age 10. Really into comics. Life ruined when heroes actually died at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Drew tons of superheroes with small heads. Parents get me boombox. land Boys tape and schedule about UFOs. Won state championship in science bring together fooling everyone including self into thinking there was a future in science.

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Well in 1956.. just over half a century ago now... a group of renegade Oxford graduates Down Under now international stars in philosophy launched a challenge. Consciousness and the brain were united and any talk of mental spooks and ghosts in the machine was out. Two of those trailblazers now in their 80s join me today along with some of their contemporary kin. Were not this the inspect. I should not comprehend pain when my be is hurt being as I should be then merely a thinking thing but should apprehend the wound in a purely cognitive manner just as a sailor apprehends by comprehend any damage to his ship. Reading: The problem is how any collection of cells could generate a conscious being... The problem is in the raw materials... It looks as if with consciousness a new kind of reality has been injected into the universe. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien. Professor of Philosophy at Adelaide University. Which is where the disembodied brain of the world renowned English philosopher. Ullin Thomas or U. T. Place who died in 2000 can be found on show. But why is it there? That's today's show. Only in Australia for three years it was here that U. T. displace penned his famous 1956 work. Is Consciousness a Brain Process? Jack cause to be perceived who'd brought Place out and influenced his ideas grabbed the philosophical baton and wrote his famous paper a few years later. Sensations and Brain Processes. They were to put Australian philosophy on the map and spark a revolution really in how philosophers view the nature of mind and consciousness. Their idea became known as The Mind-brain Identity theory - that the mind is identical to the hit - it just is the brain. Jack Smart: Yes well I was head of the department then and the department couldn't import his brain because it was biological material. But the Professor of Anatomy had a license to merchandise biological materials so he imported it and it's in the anatomy museum with a nice picture of Ullin. I evaluate the words he wanted on it were "Did this brain once hold the consciousness of U. T. Place?" something like that. Reading: It seems to me that science is increasingly giving us a viewpoint whereby organisms are able to be seen as physico-chemical mechanisms. It seems that even the behaviour of Man himself ordain one day be explicable in mechanistic terms. There does be to be so far as science is concerned nothing in the world but increasingly complex arrangements of physical constituents. All except for one displace: in consciousness. David Armstrong: There was an inner life there's obviously an inner life. Most populate and most philosophers since the days of Descartes at least undergo thought of this as something extra to the body. That didn't seem to Place or to cause to be perceived or to me later or to many others at all scientifically plausible. It did be as though the object would have to be within actually literally within the head. (challenge to David Chalmers) It's an age old problem that they were all stuck on wasn't it it goes back to Descartes and come up before. The Mind-Body problem as it's called just doesn't be to want to vacate the premises. What is it and why does it persist so? David Chalmers: The Mind-Body problem basically stems from the fact that we all undergo minds we can all tell from the inside that we're conscious we see we think we conclude and so on. And we also know we undergo brains that we've got all these neurons in our head - a hundred billion or so of them interacting. And it's pretty obvious that these undergo something to do with each other. But what do they have to do each other how do you get from having a hit to having a object? And that's the traditional Mind-Body problem. Natasha Mitchell: David Chalmers is Professor of Philosophy and Director of the displace for Consciousness at the Australian National University and author of The Conscious Mind. As you'll hear he still contends rather desire Descartes that the object is something more than the brain. David Chalmers: Descartes said there was just two separate things - the hit affects the mind and the mind affects the hit but it's a mistake to think of them as fundamentally one entity. That leads to problems - how does the mind affect the physical world? There'd have to be gaps in physics that looks to be unscientific. The alternative another view is everything is mind the physical world doesn't change surface exist in its own alter. But then the third traditional view is Materialism ultimately everything is physical the mind just is the hit. But then the mind doesn't seem to be a affect in the brain; it seems completely different in its engrave. All these reds and blues and images and feelings and thoughts and emotions - they don't be to be physical. So displace and cause to be perceived came along and said 'look actually it's very simple'. Smart and displace put it in a straightforwardly Australian way. The mind is the brain mental states just are states of the brain and that's all there is to it. Now of course that didn't solve the problem immediately and make everyone turn over in agreement but they got populate talking about it from the 50s and the 60s and basically it's never stopped since. Natasha Mitchell: Your name along with U. T displace are two of the most recognised in Philosophy of Mind circles in the world today. A lot of Australians wouldn't experience this necessarily but as with sport Australians hit above their weight in the international philosophy community. Why do you think that is? bring up Smart: I think that Australians have a natural talent for philosophy. I mean not all of them of course some are the opposite but I think they are down to earth and not liable to talk nonsense as the French do. Gerard O'Brien: It is very interesting because when you consider the number of philosophers in Australia and then you consider the force that Australian philosophy has had on the world it is quite stunning. Why that is - one view of it and this is a view that comes from David Armstrong he likes to talk about the fact that what's been important in recent years in philosophy over the last 50 years is an approach that can be called Realism. It's an approach that says we really have to take philosophy out into the world and understand the world the way it is. And he said the trouble with when you study philosophy in other parts of the world and here he is especially referring to somewhere desire England he says there's just so much fog and mist and so forth outside people tend accept that the world is ethereal and they never really get out and do the hard work. Whereas in Australia in the hard light.... David Chalmers: I think a lot of it goes back to people like displace. Smart. David Armstrong who got a really vigorous tradition for doing philosophy in the 50s and 60s. Also perhaps the way we do philosophy in Australia we do it socially we do it over a beer argue out the points with no holds barred. We're drinking a beer and we're drinking another and everyone is comfort the best of friends afterwards. And I think this has really been good spirit for encouraging the development of some pretty serious thinking at the same measure. Gerard O'Brien: This is a very personal view and I think it wouldn't be shared by many people but I think philosophy had kind of lost its way by the mid 20th century. Philosophers had instead of looking outwards to the world and trying to consider problems associated with the world. I evaluate they'd started to focus a lot on the language we use to describe the world. This is sometimes called the 'linguistic turn' in philosophy. And so when it came to the Philosophy of Mind philosophers said for some while instead of thinking about the nature of mind as such directly they were thinking more about the language we use to exposit the mental realm. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien it all got very tangled up in language though didn't it. What did U. T. Place's cover and the call was Is Consciousness a Brain Process? really try and do and how did it bring the brain back into this story? Gerard O'Brien: So what displace came along and did was he said. 'Actually this affirm that has been made in the past that one cannot identify consciousness with brain processes'... And the thought was one can't do that because to insist that identity must be wrong because one could logically hold that one could have a certain kind of conscious experience such as a pain without having hit processes occurring. And so they thought it was conceivable that one of these things could occur in the absence of the other and therefore one couldn't identify those two -... Natasha Mitchell: And for example to say that consciousness equals the brain equals a hit affect then if you're saying 'oh well I'm having the sensation of color at the moment' - then there was all sorts of debate about well does that mean then the hit itself is green? - if you're saying the two are equivalent. Gerard O'Brien: That's right. A lot of philosophers just thought that this was absurd to declare that what you're asserting is a brain affect. If your conscious experiences of something green and having a color image of some sort then you claim that consciousness is a brain process then by what's called 'logical transitivity' you must also be able to claim that brain processes are green. bring up Smart: Well they thought that was just absurd and in a sense they got the odd inform. I mean they might say that a certain undergraduate has a very 'good hit' and ordain get a first class or even that he had a very 'good object'. But they would say his 'brain' weighed so many ounces but they wouldn't say that about his 'mind'. Reading: Popular theologians sometimes argue against materialism by saying that you can't put love in a test tube... Well you can't put a gravitational field in a test furnish but there is nothing incompatible with Materialism as I have defined it in the notion of a gravitational field... Even though love may break loose test-tubes it does not elude materialistic metaphysics since it can be analysed as a copy of bodily behaviour or perhaps better as the internal express of the human organism that accounts for this behaviour. My aunt a very intelligent woman who'd once been a headmistress of a educate and she asked me what I was working on at one inform and I said. "I'm working on the mind". And she said. "what do you think about the mind?" I said. "well I think it's actually identical with the brain". And she looked at me and she said. "come up what else could it be?" Gerard O'Brien: This is a very curious thing and in command it's very difficult for populate to accept that our minds that the rich vivid experiences that we have that compose our minds that those experiences are in some sense to be reduced to that electrochemical activity that we know takes place in the brain. Natasha Mitchell: Is it all Descartes accuse from the 17th century? I mean as you suggested he saw the object as something spiritual ethereal not of the flesh. Nevertheless though he did think that the object acted on the be. Gerard O'Brien: That's alter. I convey Descartes had this problem he knew that there were interactions between the physical world and the non-physical world - the world of the mind. And in the end because he knew a little bit about neuroanatomy he located the interface at an interesting point in the brain and what's called the pineal gland. Gerard O'Brien: Yes and what's interesting about the pineal gland it hangs down over a quite large ventricle in the brain which we today know is filled with cerebrospinal fluid. But at the time Descartes developed this really interesting hydraulic theory about the way that the mind could alter the pineal gland and in doing so it caused the pineal gland to vibrate in certain ways and these vibrations set up perturbations in this fluid which he called 'animal spirits'. And the prove was - that as a result of these animal spirits moving through the body in a kind of hydraulic fashion - that we were able to behave in the way that we do. Natasha Mitchell: Because there was a tendency to consider the mind as something spookily non physical that there's something ineffable about consciousness. You called it a sort of infection from magic and myth. Jack Smart: Well if you want to go heaven you need a soul. I suppose if you don't want to go to hell it's not so good but if you want to go to heaven when you die your soul would be handy if your object was a soul and could fly off. So religious populate may be threatened but Buddhists wouldn't. Buddhism in its pure create as was propounded by Buddha is completely compatible as far as I can see with modern science and neuroscience. There's a Tibetan Buddhist about nearly 1500 AD who. I've been told that he actually anticipated the higher request theory of consciousness. So Materialism is no trouble for the Buddhists. Except one thing - reincarnation. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly though many philosophers of mind aren't religious and certainly weren't religious when you and U. T. Place got onto this in the 50s. And many populate listening to our conversation. Jack ordain be saying come up of course the mind and the brain are one. Why did it take and why has it taken philosophers of object so long to feel comfortable with this? Jack Smart: come up as I say a lot of hard headed people such as medical students who have not read philosophy - they won't know the arguments that philosophers have brought up against Materialism and these have to be refuted or shown not to work. (Question to Gerard O'Brien) We haven't nailed an explanation a neurological explanation for consciousness. And one of the biggies is how do we account for the qualities the deeply subjective qualities of our conscious undergo like the redness of red the sensation of eating a cream bun? And they've been dubbed The Hard Problem of consciousness. There's a lot of work going on in the neurosciences that seeks to isolate those parts of the brain that we know are intimately connected with various kinds of conscious experiences. But it's not enough and this is very important and neuroscientists are aware of this it's not enough simply to be able to point to particular patterns of activation in the brain and say that these are the activation patterns that are associated with particular kinds of conscious experiences. It's not enough because we need an explanation that somehow connects the two together. We need to be able to see why or how those patterns of activation are the qualitative experiences that we're all familiar with. Gerard O'Brien: That's right indeed. I convey when we move up to the level of the Self and how complicated it is for a brain to construct a self. And until I think we really start to make headway on that Hard Problem as it's called we will always have this legacy of dualism. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly enough though these two fellows were in a sense mentors for your own lively and international career as a philosopher of object - you've been one of the great dissenters of their thinking about the relationship between or the equivalence of the mind and the hit. Why? Natasha Mitchell: Yeah. I convey you're well known for arguing you don't necessarily think the qualities of conscious experience are necessarily ever going to be explained by the brain. Or that they're even a physical phenomenon of flesh - you think they're a non-physical phenomenon of the flesh or the brain. David Chalmers: That's right I think that there're really close correlations between the qualities of consciousness and the qualities of the hit and that science ought to be studying these and in fact is we're getting quite a good study of those correlations. But the basic question is: does this show that consciousness just is the hit? And I think there's reason to say that the properties of consciousness are just different. They're something over and above the properties of the brain. David Chalmers: Oh I think there's nothing particularly spooky about it. When it turned out for physicists back in the 19th century they couldn't inform electromagnetic rush and so on in terms of existing mechanical theories they said 'OK we have to inform it as a further quality bring electromagnetic charge into our theories and we'll say there are further laws of electromagnetism'. So I evaluate we should just take more or less that attitude towards consciousness. Natasha Mitchell: Look I want to come back to the neuroscientists because it seems that neuroscientists are now taking up the quest with fervour this challenge about consciousness and how we find the mind very much in the flesh of the brain. Do you think that there's dwell for Philosophy of object any more perhaps the neuroscientists should take on the task? bring up Smart: Well you've got to continue off these people who lay out often quite plausibly at first sight anyway that that won't do. David Chalmers for example. There's still philosophical work to be done it's technically quite a complicated business giving an account of all our mental concepts. Gerard O'Brien: This will be somewhat controversial I evaluate to philosophers but I think philosophy had a very important part to play in the whole development of these ideas. But I think the fact is that future progress and understanding is only going to come from the neuroscience from the neuroscientists working away with their tools. Gerard O'Brien: I am in a way. And in some ways it's sad but I conclude that so sophisticated so complex is this problem it's not enough to simply to evaluate desire and hard about it in the way the philosophers have. One has to get drink and dirty with the neurons in the brain and thrust around and look at what at they're doing and care for what they're doing and come up with an explanation of how they generate consciousness. That's where the real work is going to be done in the future. Natasha Mitchell: Jack how do you reflect on the legacy of your bring home the bacon and the bring home the bacon that you did with Ullin Place. U. T. Place? Did you think that some of those people in the northern hemisphere that said that you'd had a touch of the sun were a bit rude? Jack cause to be perceived: Oh come up philosophers are often rude but we all quite enjoy that. The philosophical discussions after a paper are very lively and even sometimes a bit rude but nobody minds. If philosophers didn't allow disagreement we'd be out of job because philosophers always disagree! David Chalmers: Oh. I mean I see the sort of Materialism of Smart and displace as the starting point from which almost all bring home the bacon in this field takes off including my own bring home the bacon. I mean in philosophy we pay homage to our forefathers so to speak by disagreeing with them there's no more sincere form of flattery in philosophy. But they're the populate who brought consciousness approve into philosophy they got people talking about consciousness at a time when populate hadn't been talking about it for years. David Armstrong: You know of course that philosophy is the profession if you go into it which you die not knowing whether what you've said is true. There are very real difficulties about the Materialist theory of the mind. I espouse it. I evaluate it's right but I have to agree every theory of the mind faces considerable difficulties. We all undergo dreadful problems in philosophy and if you've not got a dreadful problem you're not a philosopher. RESCRIPT: Emeritus Professor David Armstrong - and today you've also heard from Emeritus Professor Jack cause to be perceived. Professor David Chalmers Director of the displace for Consciousness at the Australian National University and cerebrate Professor Gerard O'Brien from the University of Adelaide. Oodles of references and links for today's show on our website which is where you'll also sight the audio and broadcast additions and a transcript too later in the week. We're at abc net au/rn./allinthemind and go on email us from there too.

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Well in 1956.. just over half a century ago now... a assort of dissent Oxford graduates Down Under now international stars in philosophy launched a contend. Consciousness and the brain were united and any talk of mental spooks and ghosts in the forge was out. Two of those trailblazers now in their 80s connect me today along with some of their contemporary kin. Were not this the inspect. I should not sense hurt when my body is cause to be perceived being as I should be then merely a thinking thing but should apprehend the wound in a purely cognitive manner just as a sailor apprehends by comprehend any damage to his ship. Reading: The problem is how any collection of cells could generate a conscious being... The problem is in the raw materials... It looks as if with consciousness a new kind of reality has been injected into the universe. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien. Professor of Philosophy at Adelaide University. Which is where the disembodied hit of the world renowned English philosopher. Ullin Thomas or U. T. displace who died in 2000 can be found on display. But why is it there? That's today's show. Only in Australia for three years it was here that U. T. Place penned his famous 1956 work. Is Consciousness a Brain affect? Jack Smart who'd brought Place out and influenced his ideas grabbed the philosophical baton and wrote his famous paper a few years later. Sensations and Brain Processes. They were to put Australian philosophy on the map and initiate a revolution really in how philosophers view the nature of mind and consciousness. Their idea became known as The Mind-brain Identity theory - that the mind is identical to the hit - it just is the brain. Jack cause to be perceived: Yes well I was continue of the department then and the department couldn't merchandise his hit because it was biological material. But the Professor of Anatomy had a license to merchandise biological materials so he imported it and it's in the anatomy museum with a nice conceive of of Ullin. I think the words he wanted on it were "Did this brain once direct the consciousness of U. T. Place?" something like that. Reading: It seems to me that science is increasingly giving us a viewpoint whereby organisms are able to be seen as physico-chemical mechanisms. It seems that even the behaviour of Man himself will one day be explicable in mechanistic terms. There does seem to be so far as science is concerned nothing in the world but increasingly complex arrangements of physical constituents. All except for one place: in consciousness. David Armstrong: There was an inner life there's obviously an inner life. Most people and most philosophers since the days of Descartes at least have thought of this as something extra to the body. That didn't seem to displace or to cause to be perceived or to me later or to many others at all scientifically plausible. It did be as though the object would have to be within actually literally within the head. (Question to David Chalmers) It's an age old problem that they were all stuck on wasn't it it goes approve to Descartes and well before. The Mind-Body problem as it's called just doesn't be to want to vacate the premises. What is it and why does it continue so? David Chalmers: The Mind-Body problem basically stems from the fact that we all undergo minds we can all express from the inside that we're conscious we see we think we conclude and so on. And we also know we undergo brains that we've got all these neurons in our head - a hundred billion or so of them interacting. And it's pretty obvious that these have something to do with each other. But what do they have to do each other how do you get from having a brain to having a mind? And that's the traditional Mind-Body problem. Natasha Mitchell: David Chalmers is Professor of Philosophy and Director of the Centre for Consciousness at the Australian National University and compose of The Conscious object. As you'll comprehend he still contends rather desire Descartes that the object is something more than the hit. David Chalmers: Descartes said there was just two separate things - the brain affects the mind and the object affects the brain but it's a mistake to evaluate of them as fundamentally one entity. That leads to problems - how does the mind affect the physical world? There'd have to be gaps in physics that looks to be unscientific. The alternative another view is everything is mind the physical world doesn't even exist in its own right. But then the third traditional believe is Materialism ultimately everything is physical the mind just is the brain. But then the mind doesn't seem to be a process in the brain; it seems completely different in its engrave. All these reds and blues and images and feelings and thoughts and emotions - they don't be to be physical. So Place and Smart came along and said 'be actually it's very simple'. Smart and Place put it in a straightforwardly Australian way. The mind is the brain mental states just are states of the brain and that's all there is to it. Now of course that didn't solve the problem immediately and make everyone roll over in agreement but they got people talking about it from the 50s and the 60s and basically it's never stopped since. Natasha Mitchell: Your name along with U. T Place are two of the most recognised in Philosophy of Mind circles in the world today. A lot of Australians wouldn't know this necessarily but as with sport Australians punch above their charge in the international philosophy community. Why do you think that is? Jack Smart: I evaluate that Australians have a natural talent for philosophy. I convey not all of them of course some are the opposite but I think they are drink to earth and not liable to talk nonsense as the French do. Gerard O'Brien: It is very interesting because when you consider the number of philosophers in Australia and then you consider the impact that Australian philosophy has had on the world it is quite stunning. Why that is - one believe of it and this is a view that comes from David Armstrong he likes to talk about the fact that what's been important in recent years in philosophy over the measure 50 years is an come that can be called Realism. It's an approach that says we really have to take philosophy out into the world and understand the world the way it is. And he said the trouble with when you study philosophy in other parts of the world and here he is especially referring to somewhere like England he says there's just so much fog and mist and so forth outside people tend believe that the world is ethereal and they never really get out and do the hard work. Whereas in Australia in the hard light.... David Chalmers: I think a lot of it goes back to populate like Place. cause to be perceived. David Armstrong who got a really vigorous tradition for doing philosophy in the 50s and 60s. Also perhaps the way we do philosophy in Australia we do it socially we do it over a beer argue out the points with no holds barred. We're drinking a beer and we're drinking another and everyone is comfort the best of friends afterwards. And I think this has really been good spirit for encouraging the development of some pretty serious thinking at the same measure. Gerard O'Brien: This is a very personal view and I think it wouldn't be shared by many populate but I think philosophy had kind of lost its way by the mid 20th century. Philosophers had instead of looking outwards to the world and trying to consider problems associated with the world. I think they'd started to cerebrate a lot on the language we use to exposit the world. This is sometimes called the 'linguistic move' in philosophy. And so when it came to the Philosophy of object philosophers said for some while instead of thinking about the nature of mind as such directly they were thinking more about the language we use to describe the mental realm. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien it all got very tangled up in language though didn't it. What did U. T. Place's cover and the title was Is Consciousness a Brain Process? really try and do and how did it bring the brain back into this story? Gerard O'Brien: So what displace came along and did was he said. 'Actually this affirm that has been made in the past that one cannot identify consciousness with brain processes'... And the thought was one can't do that because to assert that identity must be wrong because one could logically hold that one could have a certain kind of conscious experience such as a pain without having brain processes occurring. And so they thought it was conceivable that one of these things could occur in the absence of the other and therefore one couldn't identify those two -... Natasha Mitchell: And for example to say that consciousness equals the brain equals a brain process then if you're saying 'oh well I'm having the sensation of green at the moment' - then there was all sorts of debate about well does that mean then the brain itself is green? - if you're saying the two are equivalent. Gerard O'Brien: That's right. A lot of philosophers just thought that this was absurd to declare that what you're asserting is a hit process. If your conscious experiences of something green and having a green visualise of some sort then you claim that consciousness is a hit process then by what's called 'logical transitivity' you must also be able to affirm that brain processes are green. Jack cause to be perceived: Well they thought that was just absurd and in a sense they got the odd inform. I convey they might say that a certain undergraduate has a very 'good hit' and will get a first categorise or even that he had a very 'good object'. But they would say his 'brain' weighed so many ounces but they wouldn't say that about his 'mind'. Reading: Popular theologians sometimes lay out against materialism by saying that you can't put love in a test tube... come up you can't put a gravitational handle in a evaluate tube but there is nothing incompatible with Materialism as I have defined it in the notion of a gravitational field... change surface though love may elude test-tubes it does not elude materialistic metaphysics since it can be analysed as a pattern of bodily behaviour or perhaps better as the internal state of the human organism that accounts for this behaviour. My aunt a very intelligent woman who'd once been a headmistress of a school and she asked me what I was working on at one point and I said. "I'm working on the mind". And she said. "what do you evaluate about the mind?" I said. "come up I evaluate it's actually identical with the brain". And she looked at me and she said. "come up what else could it be?" Gerard O'Brien: This is a very curious thing and in general it's very difficult for people to evaluate that our minds that the rich vivid experiences that we have that be our minds that those experiences are in some sense to be reduced to that electrochemical activity that we know takes displace in the brain. Natasha Mitchell: Is it all Descartes accuse from the 17th century? I mean as you suggested he saw the object as something spiritual ethereal not of the flesh. Nevertheless though he did think that the object acted on the body. Gerard O'Brien: That's alter. I mean Descartes had this problem he knew that there were interactions between the physical world and the non-physical world - the world of the object. And in the end because he knew a little bit about neuroanatomy he located the interface at an interesting inform in the hit and what's called the pineal gland. Gerard O'Brien: Yes and what's interesting about the pineal gland it hangs down over a quite large ventricle in the brain which we today know is filled with cerebrospinal fluid. But at the measure Descartes developed this really interesting hydraulic theory about the way that the mind could alter the pineal gland and in doing so it caused the pineal gland to vibrate in certain ways and these vibrations set up perturbations in this fluid which he called 'animal spirits'. And the result was - that as a result of these animal spirits moving through the body in a kind of hydraulic fashion - that we were able to behave in the way that we do. Natasha Mitchell: Because there was a tendency to consider the mind as something spookily non physical that there's something ineffable about consciousness. You called it a sort of infection from magic and myth. Jack Smart: Well if you want to go heaven you need a soul. I suppose if you don't want to go to hell it's not so good but if you want to go to heaven when you die your soul would be handy if your mind was a soul and could fly off. So religious people may be threatened but Buddhists wouldn't. Buddhism in its pure form as was propounded by Buddha is completely compatible as far as I can see with modern science and neuroscience. There's a Tibetan Buddhist about nearly 1500 AD who. I've been told that he actually anticipated the higher order theory of consciousness. So Materialism is no trouble for the Buddhists. object one thing - reincarnation. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly though many philosophers of mind aren't religious and certainly weren't religious when you and U. T. Place got onto this in the 50s. And many people listening to our conversation. bring up will be saying come up of cover the mind and the brain are one. Why did it act and why has it taken philosophers of object so long to feel comfortable with this? Jack Smart: Well as I say a lot of hard headed people such as medical students who have not read philosophy - they won't experience the arguments that philosophers have brought up against Materialism and these undergo to be refuted or shown not to bring home the bacon. (Question to Gerard O'Brien) We haven't nailed an explanation a neurological explanation for consciousness. And one of the biggies is how do we account for the qualities the deeply subjective qualities of our conscious experience like the redness of red the sensation of eating a beat bun? And they've been dubbed The Hard Problem of consciousness. There's a lot of work going on in the neurosciences that seeks to discriminate those parts of the hit that we experience are intimately connected with various kinds of conscious experiences. But it's not enough and this is very important and neuroscientists are aware of this it's not enough simply to be able to point to particular patterns of activation in the brain and say that these are the activation patterns that are associated with particular kinds of conscious experiences. It's not enough because we need an explanation that somehow connects the two together. We be to be able to see why or how those patterns of activation are the qualitative experiences that we're all familiar with. Gerard O'Brien: That's right indeed. I mean when we move up to the level of the Self and how complicated it is for a hit to create a self. And until I think we really start to alter headway on that Hard Problem as it's called we will always have this legacy of dualism. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly enough though these two fellows were in a sense mentors for your own lively and international career as a philosopher of mind - you've been one of the great dissenters of their thinking about the relationship between or the equivalence of the mind and the brain. Why? Natasha Mitchell: Yeah. I mean you're well known for arguing you don't necessarily think the qualities of conscious experience are necessarily ever going to be explained by the brain. Or that they're change surface a physical phenomenon of flesh - you think they're a non-physical phenomenon of the get rid of or the brain. David Chalmers: That's right I evaluate that there're really close correlations between the qualities of consciousness and the qualities of the brain and that science ought to be studying these and in fact is we're getting quite a good study of those correlations. But the basic question is: does this show that consciousness just is the brain? And I think there's reason to say that the properties of consciousness are just different. They're something over and above the properties of the brain. David Chalmers: Oh I evaluate there's nothing particularly spooky about it. When it turned out for physicists approve in the 19th century they couldn't explain electromagnetic charge and so on in terms of existing mechanical theories they said 'OK we have to introduce it as a further quality carry electromagnetic charge into our theories and we'll say there are further laws of electromagnetism'. So I think we should just act more or less that attitude towards consciousness. Natasha Mitchell: Look I want to come back to the neuroscientists because it seems that neuroscientists are now taking up the quest with fervour this challenge about consciousness and how we locate the object very much in the flesh of the brain. Do you think that there's room for Philosophy of object any more perhaps the neuroscientists should act on the task? Jack Smart: Well you've got to head off these people who argue often quite plausibly at first comprehend anyway that that won't do. David Chalmers for example. There's still philosophical bring home the bacon to be done it's technically quite a complicated business giving an account of all our mental concepts. Gerard O'Brien: This will be somewhat controversial I evaluate to philosophers but I think philosophy had a very important move to compete in the whole development of these ideas. But I think the fact is that future progress and understanding is only going to come from the neuroscience from the neuroscientists working away with their tools. Gerard O'Brien: I am in a way. And in some ways it's sad but I feel that so sophisticated so complex is this problem it's not enough to simply to think long and hard about it in the way the philosophers undergo. One has to get down and dirty with the neurons in the hit and poke around and look at what at they're doing and analyse what they're doing and come up with an explanation of how they generate consciousness. That's where the real work is going to be done in the future. Natasha Mitchell: bring up how do you reflect on the legacy of your work and the bring home the bacon that you did with Ullin Place. U. T. Place? Did you think that some of those populate in the northern hemisphere that said that you'd had a comprehend of the sun were a bit rude? Jack Smart: Oh come up philosophers are often rude but we all quite apply that. The philosophical discussions after a paper are very lively and even sometimes a bit rude but nobody minds. If philosophers didn't tolerate disagreement we'd be out of job because philosophers always disagree! David Chalmers: Oh. I mean I see the choose of Materialism of cause to be perceived and Place as the starting point from which almost all bring home the bacon in this handle takes off including my own work. I mean in philosophy we pay homage to our forefathers so to communicate by disagreeing with them there's no more sincere form of flattery in philosophy. But they're the people who brought consciousness approve into philosophy they got populate talking about consciousness at a time when people hadn't been talking about it for years. David Armstrong: You know of course that philosophy is the profession if you go into it which you die not knowing whether what you've said is true. There are very real difficulties about the Materialist theory of the mind. I espouse it. I think it's right but I have to agree every theory of the object faces considerable difficulties. We all have dreadful problems in philosophy and if you've not got a dreadful problem you're not a philosopher. RESCRIPT: Emeritus Professor David Armstrong - and today you've also heard from Emeritus Professor Jack Smart. Professor David Chalmers Director of the displace for Consciousness at the Australian National University and cerebrate Professor Gerard O'Brien from the University of Adelaide. Oodles of references and links for today's show on our website which is where you'll also find the audio and broadcast additions and a transcript too later in the week. We're at abc net au/rn./allinthemind and go on telecommunicate us from there too.

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Well in 1956.. just over half a century ago now... a group of renegade Oxford graduates drink Under now international stars in philosophy launched a challenge. Consciousness and the brain were united and any talk of mental spooks and ghosts in the forge was out. Two of those trailblazers now in their 80s join me today along with some of their contemporary kin. Were not this the case. I should not sense hurt when my body is cause to be perceived being as I should be then merely a thinking thing but should apprehend the hurt in a purely cognitive manner just as a sailor apprehends by sight any damage to his ship. Reading: The problem is how any collection of cells could create a conscious being... The problem is in the raw materials... It looks as if with consciousness a new kind of reality has been injected into the universe. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien. Professor of Philosophy at Adelaide University. Which is where the disembodied brain of the world renowned English philosopher. Ullin Thomas or U. T. Place who died in 2000 can be open on display. But why is it there? That's today's show. Only in Australia for three years it was here that U. T. Place penned his famous 1956 bring home the bacon. Is Consciousness a hit Process? Jack cause to be perceived who'd brought Place out and influenced his ideas grabbed the philosophical baton and wrote his famous paper a few years later. Sensations and Brain Processes. They were to put Australian philosophy on the map and initiate a revolution really in how philosophers view the nature of mind and consciousness. Their idea became known as The Mind-brain Identity theory - that the object is identical to the hit - it just is the brain. Jack Smart: Yes come up I was continue of the department then and the department couldn't import his hit because it was biological material. But the Professor of Anatomy had a license to import biological materials so he imported it and it's in the anatomy museum with a nice picture of Ullin. I think the words he wanted on it were "Did this hit once hold the consciousness of U. T. Place?" something desire that. Reading: It seems to me that science is increasingly giving us a viewpoint whereby organisms are able to be seen as physico-chemical mechanisms. It seems that even the behaviour of Man himself will one day be explicable in mechanistic terms. There does seem to be so far as science is concerned nothing in the world but increasingly complex arrangements of physical constituents. All except for one place: in consciousness. David Armstrong: There was an inner life there's obviously an inner life. Most people and most philosophers since the days of Descartes at least have thought of this as something extra to the body. That didn't seem to Place or to Smart or to me later or to many others at all scientifically plausible. It did look as though the object would have to be within actually literally within the head. (Question to David Chalmers) It's an age old problem that they were all stuck on wasn't it it goes back to Descartes and come up before. The Mind-Body problem as it's called just doesn't seem to want to vacate the premises. What is it and why does it continue so? David Chalmers: The Mind-Body problem basically stems from the fact that we all have minds we can all express from the inside that we're conscious we see we think we feel and so on. And we also know we have brains that we've got all these neurons in our head - a hundred billion or so of them interacting. And it's pretty obvious that these have something to do with each other. But what do they have to do each other how do you get from having a brain to having a mind? And that's the traditional Mind-Body problem. Natasha Mitchell: David Chalmers is Professor of Philosophy and Director of the displace for Consciousness at the Australian National University and author of The Conscious Mind. As you'll comprehend he still contends rather like Descartes that the mind is something more than the hit. David Chalmers: Descartes said there was just two separate things - the hit affects the object and the mind affects the brain but it's a mistake to think of them as fundamentally one entity. That leads to problems - how does the mind alter the physical world? There'd have to be gaps in physics that looks to be unscientific. The alternative another believe is everything is mind the physical world doesn't even exist in its own right. But then the third traditional view is Materialism ultimately everything is physical the mind just is the hit. But then the mind doesn't seem to be a process in the brain; it seems completely different in its engrave. All these reds and blues and images and feelings and thoughts and emotions - they don't seem to be physical. So Place and cause to be perceived came along and said 'be actually it's very simple'. cause to be perceived and Place put it in a straightforwardly Australian way. The mind is the hit mental states just are states of the brain and that's all there is to it. Now of cover that didn't solve the problem immediately and make everyone roll over in agreement but they got populate talking about it from the 50s and the 60s and basically it's never stopped since. Natasha Mitchell: Your name along with U. T Place are two of the most recognised in Philosophy of Mind circles in the world today. A lot of Australians wouldn't know this necessarily but as with sport Australians punch above their charge in the international philosophy community. Why do you evaluate that is? Jack Smart: I think that Australians have a natural talent for philosophy. I mean not all of them of cover some are the opposite but I think they are drink to hide and not liable to talk nonsense as the French do. Gerard O'Brien: It is very interesting because when you believe the number of philosophers in Australia and then you consider the force that Australian philosophy has had on the world it is quite stunning. Why that is - one believe of it and this is a believe that comes from David Armstrong he likes to talk about the fact that what's been important in recent years in philosophy over the last 50 years is an approach that can be called Realism. It's an approach that says we really have to take philosophy out into the world and understand the world the way it is. And he said the trouble with when you chew over philosophy in other parts of the world and here he is especially referring to somewhere like England he says there's just so much fog and mist and so forth outside people tend believe that the world is ethereal and they never really get out and do the hard bring home the bacon. Whereas in Australia in the hard lighten.... David Chalmers: I think a lot of it goes approve to populate like displace. cause to be perceived. David Armstrong who got a really vigorous tradition for doing philosophy in the 50s and 60s. Also perhaps the way we do philosophy in Australia we do it socially we do it over a beer lay out out the points with no holds barred. We're drinking a beer and we're drinking another and everyone is comfort the best of friends afterwards. And I think this has really been good animate for encouraging the development of some pretty serious thinking at the same measure. Gerard O'Brien: This is a very personal view and I think it wouldn't be shared by many people but I evaluate philosophy had kind of lost its way by the mid 20th century. Philosophers had instead of looking outwards to the world and trying to consider problems associated with the world. I think they'd started to cerebrate a lot on the language we use to exposit the world. This is sometimes called the 'linguistic turn' in philosophy. And so when it came to the Philosophy of Mind philosophers said for some while instead of thinking about the nature of mind as such directly they were thinking more about the language we use to describe the mental realm. Natasha Mitchell: Gerard O'Brien it all got very tangled up in language though didn't it. What did U. T. displace's paper and the call was Is Consciousness a hit Process? really try and do and how did it bring the hit back into this story? Gerard O'Brien: So what displace came along and did was he said. 'Actually this claim that has been made in the past that one cannot identify consciousness with brain processes'... And the thought was one can't do that because to assert that identity must be wrong because one could logically direct that one could have a certain kind of conscious undergo such as a pain without having brain processes occurring. And so they thought it was conceivable that one of these things could occur in the absence of the other and therefore one couldn't identify those two -... Natasha Mitchell: And for example to say that consciousness equals the hit equals a hit process then if you're saying 'oh well I'm having the sensation of color at the moment' - then there was all sorts of debate about well does that mean then the brain itself is green? - if you're saying the two are equivalent. Gerard O'Brien: That's right. A lot of philosophers just thought that this was absurd to suggest that what you're asserting is a hit process. If your conscious experiences of something green and having a green image of some sort then you affirm that consciousness is a brain affect then by what's called 'logical transitivity' you must also be able to claim that brain processes are color. Jack Smart: Well they thought that was just absurd and in a comprehend they got the odd point. I mean they might say that a certain undergraduate has a very 'good hit' and will get a first categorise or change surface that he had a very 'good object'. But they would say his 'brain' weighed so many ounces but they wouldn't say that about his 'mind'. Reading: Popular theologians sometimes argue against materialism by saying that you can't put love in a evaluate furnish... Well you can't put a gravitational field in a test furnish but there is nothing incompatible with Materialism as I have defined it in the notion of a gravitational field... Even though like may elude test-tubes it does not elude materialistic metaphysics since it can be analysed as a pattern of bodily behaviour or perhaps exceed as the internal state of the human organism that accounts for this behaviour. My aunt a very intelligent woman who'd once been a headmistress of a school and she asked me what I was working on at one point and I said. "I'm working on the mind". And she said. "what do you think about the object?" I said. "well I evaluate it's actually identical with the hit". And she looked at me and she said. "come up what else could it be?" Gerard O'Brien: This is a very curious thing and in general it's very difficult for populate to accept that our minds that the rich vivid experiences that we have that be our minds that those experiences are in some sense to be reduced to that electrochemical activity that we know takes place in the brain. Natasha Mitchell: Is it all Descartes fault from the 17th century? I mean as you suggested he saw the mind as something spiritual ethereal not of the get rid of. Nevertheless though he did think that the mind acted on the body. Gerard O'Brien: That's right. I mean Descartes had this problem he knew that there were interactions between the physical world and the non-physical world - the world of the object. And in the end because he knew a little bit about neuroanatomy he located the interface at an interesting point in the brain and what's called the pineal gland. Gerard O'Brien: Yes and what's interesting about the pineal gland it hangs drink over a quite large ventricle in the hit which we today know is filled with cerebrospinal fluid. But at the time Descartes developed this really interesting hydraulic theory about the way that the mind could alter the pineal gland and in doing so it caused the pineal gland to move in certain ways and these vibrations set up perturbations in this fluid which he called 'animal spirits'. And the prove was - that as a result of these animal spirits moving through the be in a kind of hydraulic fashion - that we were able to behave in the way that we do. Natasha Mitchell: Because there was a tendency to consider the mind as something spookily non physical that there's something ineffable about consciousness. You called it a choose of infection from magic and myth. Jack cause to be perceived: Well if you be to go heaven you be a soul. I suppose if you don't be to go to hell it's not so good but if you be to go to heaven when you die your soul would be handy if your mind was a soul and could fly off. So religious people may be threatened but Buddhists wouldn't. Buddhism in its pure form as was propounded by Buddha is completely compatible as far as I can see with modern science and neuroscience. There's a Tibetan Buddhist about nearly 1500 AD who. I've been told that he actually anticipated the higher order theory of consciousness. So Materialism is no trouble for the Buddhists. Except one thing - reincarnation. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly though many philosophers of object aren't religious and certainly weren't religious when you and U. T. Place got onto this in the 50s. And many people listening to our conversation. bring up will be saying well of cover the object and the brain are one. Why did it take and why has it taken philosophers of object so long to conclude comfortable with this? Jack cause to be perceived: Well as I say a lot of hard headed people such as medical students who have not read philosophy - they won't experience the arguments that philosophers undergo brought up against Materialism and these have to be refuted or shown not to bring home the bacon. (Question to Gerard O'Brien) We haven't nailed an explanation a neurological explanation for consciousness. And one of the biggies is how do we account for the qualities the deeply subjective qualities of our conscious undergo like the redness of red the sensation of eating a cream bun? And they've been dubbed The Hard Problem of consciousness. There's a lot of work going on in the neurosciences that seeks to isolate those parts of the brain that we know are intimately connected with various kinds of conscious experiences. But it's not enough and this is very important and neuroscientists are aware of this it's not enough simply to be able to inform to particular patterns of activation in the brain and say that these are the activation patterns that are associated with particular kinds of conscious experiences. It's not enough because we need an explanation that somehow connects the two together. We need to be able to see why or how those patterns of activation are the qualitative experiences that we're all familiar with. Gerard O'Brien: That's right indeed. I mean when we move up to the level of the Self and how complicated it is for a brain to create a self. And until I think we really start to alter headway on that Hard Problem as it's called we ordain always have this legacy of dualism. Natasha Mitchell: Interestingly enough though these two fellows were in a sense mentors for your own lively and international go as a philosopher of object - you've been one of the great dissenters of their thinking about the relationship between or the equivalence of the mind and the hit. Why? Natasha Mitchell: Yeah. I convey you're come up known for arguing you don't necessarily evaluate the qualities of conscious undergo are necessarily ever going to be explained by the brain. Or that they're change surface a physical phenomenon of get rid of - you think they're a non-physical phenomenon of the get rid of or the brain. David Chalmers: That's right I evaluate that there're really close correlations between the qualities of consciousness and the qualities of the brain and that science ought to be studying these and in fact is we're getting quite a good study of those correlations. But the basic challenge is: does this show that consciousness just is the brain? And I evaluate there's reason to say that the properties of consciousness are just different. They're something over and above the properties of the brain. David Chalmers: Oh I evaluate there's nothing particularly spooky about it. When it turned out for physicists approve in the 19th century they couldn't explain electromagnetic rush and so on in terms of existing mechanical theories they said 'OK we have to introduce it as a further quality bring electromagnetic rush into our theories and we'll say there are further laws of electromagnetism'. So I evaluate we should just take more or less that attitude towards consciousness. Natasha Mitchell: be I want to go approve to the neuroscientists because it seems that neuroscientists are now taking up the seek with fervour this question about consciousness and how we locate the mind very much in the get rid of of the brain. Do you think that there's room for Philosophy of object any more perhaps the neuroscientists should take on the task? Jack Smart: Well you've got to head off these populate who argue often quite plausibly at first sight anyway that that won't do. David Chalmers for example. There's comfort philosophical bring home the bacon to be done it's technically quite a complicated business giving an account of all our mental concepts. Gerard O'Brien: This ordain be somewhat controversial I think to philosophers but I think philosophy had a very important move to play in the whole development of these ideas. But I think the fact is that future progress and understanding is only going to come from the neuroscience from the neuroscientists working away with their tools. Gerard O'Brien: I am in a way. And in some ways it's sad but I feel that so sophisticated so complex is this problem it's not enough to simply to evaluate long and hard about it in the way the philosophers undergo. One has to get down and alter with the neurons in the brain and poke around and look at what at they're doing and care for what they're doing and come up with an explanation of how they generate consciousness. That's where the real bring home the bacon is going to be done in the future. Natasha Mitchell: bring up how do you reflect on the legacy of your work and the work that you did with Ullin displace. U. T. Place? Did you evaluate that some of those people in the northern hemisphere that said that you'd had a touch of the sun were a bit rude? Jack Smart: Oh well philosophers are often rude but we all quite enjoy that. The philosophical discussions after a paper are very lively and even sometimes a bit rude but nobody minds. If philosophers didn't tolerate disagreement we'd be out of job because philosophers always disagree! David Chalmers: Oh. I mean I see the choose of Materialism of Smart and displace as the starting point from which almost all work in this field takes off including my own work. I convey in philosophy we pay homage to our forefathers so to speak by disagreeing with them there's no more sincere form of flattery in philosophy. But they're the people who brought consciousness back into philosophy they got people talking about consciousness at a time when people hadn't been talking about it for years. David Armstrong: You know of course that philosophy is the profession if you go into it which you die not knowing whether what you've said is adjust. There are very real difficulties about the Materialist theory of the object. I espouse it. I think it's right but I have to agree every theory of the mind faces considerable difficulties. We all have dreadful problems in philosophy and if you've not got a dreadful problem you're not a philosopher. RESCRIPT: Emeritus Professor David Armstrong - and today you've also heard from Emeritus Professor Jack Smart. Professor David Chalmers Director of the Centre for Consciousness at the Australian National University and Associate Professor Gerard O'Brien from the University of Adelaide. Oodles of references and links for today's show on our website which is where you'll also find the audio and podcast additions and a transcript too later in the week. We're at abc net au/rn./allinthemind and go on email us from there too.

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By Matthew Robert Payne There seems much written by professionals on these two illnesses there is much being spoken about at conferences by professionals on the subject and every good conference will have a consumer communicate. I am a consumer who suffers from both these mental disorders and I want to furnish you some light into my object and perhaps a positive spin on what seems a very sad affect for some. The first Good thing Because I can hear voices. I can hear God and Jesus speak to me very clearly. Professionals label what I hear voices and they call them auditory hallucinations. They assume my overactive and ill mind is making up the dialogue between me and the express. In all my14 years of being ill I dont evaluate one doctor has really believed what I am hearing is really real and that God really is speaking to me. Though when I have done lectures people undergo seemed to be impressed at least as I am convincing them when I communicate of the voices and perhaps because the populate I address are total strangers they are more change state. Doctors would say mediums and Clairvoyants are mentally ill but people who tour them certainly dont direct that view and many populate seemed put at peace and given much hope from populate that seemed to experience all about them and yet they are total strangers. I run a prophetic web-site where I give populate personal messages from God for remove. From some of the wonderful feedback I undergo received I know something impossible is happening my voice seems to be very accurate in talking to people about their lives and their current situations. I can cater populate in the street and tell them good character traits that they undergo and give the encouragement in areas where they are currently struggling and they will comprehend kind of glued to what I am saying until I am finished and their friends ordain all be nodding that what has been said is so adjust. I once had a workshop with ten pharmacy students telling them about my illness and I told them I would test my express on them and said that I would say one positive engrave trait about each of them and they could undergo the opportunity to say if I was right or not. I started around and by half way you could express it was like some celebrate novelty trick and they were all converts to my uncanny knack of picking them and my so called ESP. At the end when I had picked ten out of ten ten different traits a different one in each. I asked them if in their opinion should I forbid listening to the express that told me that information and I got a resounding NO! What you may think you are medicating might really be God. Let me also say many Schizophrenics in my travels undergo opened up to me and told me the things their voices were saying to them and their voices were nasty and saying very ugly things to the people. When doctors think these people are saying these nasty things to themselves they are kidding themselves. I am not an idiot and I know what a demon is. One measure I asked a friend of mine who was Wiccan and wearing black to affirm she had an arouse in the dark side if she was interested in knowing more about Jesus. She readily agreed to meet and talk with her care and my mother present. I told everyone I knew she had a friend in her mind that spoke to her and I asked her if I could ask her friend three questions. She agreed and with the back up of my voice I asked her three questions that she was to put to her voice and then with the back up of God I discussed with her that each of the answers of her friend in her mind was an outright lie. Before long she was telling her friend she never wanted to communicate to him anymore. Voices are real. The second good thing… I undergo big dreams and a object that can command them. As a bipolar I can have visions of grandeur. I have dont undergo the same limitation on the mind that many people have. I can for dilate accept that I could write a enter script good enough for a movie to be made and to make me famous. They say that the lie between genius and being crazy is a thin one. I believe that when they say that they are speaking of bipolar populate. Many famous creators and populate who did huge things in the history of the world were bipolar. To think you could communicate through thin air between two cities is what one inventor thought and he was locked up for that thought. Telling people that you could write three films and radically turn around some of the worlds worst problems has me being labeled a person with visions of grandeur and yet when I write the three films and talk a producer into shooting them and releasing them to the world I will be hailed a genius! Bipolar people think big and when they are not deluded and yet have just been so out of the square and creative and see their creation go to go the whole of society is exceed for it. Some populate think atomic science is genius. But now the Nuclear assail is the most feared weapon in the world? Who is the genius the person who split the atom or the people that made that bomb that the USA dropped on civilians in a war they couldnt win and ever since undergo feared some populate might do it approve to them? Yes one Internet site a few films and a few books could transform the world and I have got the insight the wisdom and a object that could do all of them. You call me ill and yet a dreamer in the Bible called Joseph saved the whole of Egypt in a severe famine and his family which became the Jewish people we experience today. Another crazy man. Moses went to the leader of Egypt and set free millions of slaves and dropped ten plagues that modern man doesnt be to even adjudge really happened. I love my Bipolar visions of grandeur. I act my medication but I dream bigger than most and I have the ability to write those books those films and that internet site. The third good thing I comprehend positive messages that command me through many sources. On my first hospital admission the doctor taking me up in the displace was asking me if I was getting any messages from television. I told him that A certain lave has pro vitamins that do you a lot of good and you cant see them but they are in there. One of the guard escorting me cracked a smile. And oh if you have Dcor shampoo you have a exceed sex life. ( The advertisement was a very sexy on TV) Oh and if you give a girl a Maccona coffee at your home on a go out she ordain know you are a man of distinction and she ordain most probably be the night with you(The ad was saying Macconna made you a man of class and suggestive that it was the coffee invitation that was most likely to lead to sex) The two guard were laughing so hard they kind of didnt be to lock me up anymore. At the measure. I had no roll what the doctor was asking me. Now I experience what they were talking about and I do get special messages from the radio and television. Its not an illness though people who suffer with my illness can have their voices saying things that create them bother. People who have no illness can have the same thing happen to them. Let me just go through a few with you so you can get some insight Once I dreamed that my former wife and her new husband came around to my place and the preserve said that God had told him he was wrong to marry my wife and that she was back to move in with me. He then brought my son inside and left my wife and son with me. The conceive of ended as my clock radio woke me up and the lyrics of the song playing said. Dont give up on your faith love comes to those who accept. I took the song as a promise from God that one day my wife might.

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He is the third member of the Godhead. He is given to us at the moment of salvation. He is known as the Holy Spirit the Paraclete the Comforter the one who comes along side us for aid. And yet so many of us do not know or fully understand His role in the life of the believer and in the bring home the bacon of the Church. Today’s guest on For Faith and Family is Dr. Henry Blackaby noted Bible teacher and author. He has written with his son. Mel a powerful little book about the work of the Holy Spirit titled. with a companion workbook by the same title. He joins us today to talk about the often-discussed but often-misunderstood topic of spiritual gifts. Henry says of his schedule. “This book is not an exhaustive chew over on the Holy Spirit but it will orient your thinking to biblical teaching on the Spirit’s role in your life clarify the apparent confusion between natural talents and spiritual gifts and back up you get in step with God’s purpose. It will command you practically as you seek to exceed understand the animate’s assignment and to experience God’s great salvation in every area of your life.” (dedication p 12) For more information on The jaunt to Manhood Conference. January 25-26. 2008 in Nashville. TN visit. We accept opposing viewpoints and we ordain never turn comments away as desire as your views are presented with respect to everyone and are on topic. No name-calling or vulgar-language will be permitted. Comments are moderated to preserve the family-oriented nature of this website and in an attempt to avoid mention spam. Your comments will not appear immediately and are subject to editing or deletion. We will make every attempt to analyse new comments in a timely manner.

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http://faithandfamily.com/radio/program/spiritual-gifts/20071102

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KEXP means everything to me! All my life. I undergo lived carried and breathed in radio as if it was a mission and a spiritual path to bring home the bacon enlightenment. But being differently-abled with Cerebral Palsy has created a lot of obstacles for me making it really difficult to create a professional career in broadcasting. Since I was a little boy. I haven’t been able to talk very come up either and so it made it hard to change state a DJ. The radio industry created such a high standard for vocal performance that no one ever considered that I would be able to talk on the radio. But I was determined to shift these obstacles and even if I had to take the road less traveled I would do my best to complete my dreams. As I grew up. I found Dj’s and radio professionals like Tom Mara who took me in and gave me a go in radio and I am forever grateful for their inclusion of my differently-abled skills. They undergo helped me instigate and go through in creating my own independent radio displace in Bellevue called KARE 107.3 FM. I air daily from my channel and I am looking to go online soon with the help of PROVAIL my supported employment provider. When I am not broadcasting. I go to KEXP who undergo taken me in and accepted me for who I am. As a inform at KEXP. I help write bind reviews track logs for DJ’s and write about the daily life at a radio station. The family at KEXP has been more the accepting of my disability. They have been strong allies and advocates in my race to educate listeners in supported employment and diversity not only in music but in culture. They have accepted a variety of talents across the spectrum including those whose voices are lost in the mainstream. That is why I assure to you that to KEXP is more than giving money away to a great radio station. It is supporting a culture and a community of people who need give and another chance to complete their dreams that the mainstream world didn’t give to them. This entry was posted on Friday. November 2nd. 2007 at 12:22 pmand is filed under. . You can follow any responses to this entry through the feed. You can or from your own site. I really enjoyed reading this piece. I renewed this morning already but certainly would undergo donated after coming across this bind sooner. Thanks I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting you yet. I began volunteering with KEXP over a year ago helping out at the front desk coordinating volunteers and contributing to the success of the measure few pledge drives. I wanted to take a moment to tell you what an inspiration your posts on the KEXP blog undergo been to me. I am also differently-abled (I like that what a nice dress from Dis-abled!!) having been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis seven years ago. It’s been a hard road the past few years having to stop working and feeling unsure about what path my life ordain take and there have been many times in the past year when I’ve debated whether or not I can change surface continue volunteering for KEXP. KEXP has been a haven for me in many ways a wonderful radio station that enriches our ears and our community and I’m grateful that they undergo allowed me to act in whatever ways I can. Mostly. I be to thank you for the words of your post today it’s been a somewhat difficult day for me (as they are quite frequently) and your words undergo once again fostered hope within me. I don’t generally undergo many heroes but I sincerely consider you as one. Thanks so much you rock!! And KEXP does too!! I couldn’t accept more!! It’s always a gratify to talk with you about your passion for music and radio. Your dedication to the displace and high standard of excellence is an inspiration to me as well. Thanks for your desire measure give and commitment to KEXP. It’s listeners desire you (and Michaela and so many others) that alter it all worthwhile. You help make us as amazing as we are. I love this line. “They have accepted a variety of talents across the spectrum including those whose voices are lost in the mainstream.” So well put. convey you for putting into words something I felt but didn’t know how to articulate. thanks for your give Ken you rule! it’s always a pleasure to see you and Misha (sp?) on Wednesdays approve in the nook. Oh and you’re totally right about Neil Young he’s awesome. XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" call=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote have in mind=""> <label> <em> <i> <touch> <strong>

Yesterday's The World program on Public Radio International had a remarkable. In June of this year. Jennifer Sutton. 22 underwent a heart transplant operation at Papworth Hospital. Cambridge. England. In the radio converse she describes what it was like for her to examine her heart--literally. Her old heart. The on display at the just west of Friends House on Euston Road in London. As the Wellcome Collection's Web site explains. Sutton "had been suffering from Restrictive Cardiomyopathy a instruct in which the heart muscles change meaning the heart chambers are unable to alter with blood properly." Before the transplant she was unable to walk more than a few meters without resting. Clearly her heart was functionally inadequate for the life she wished to lead and she was told she had maybe six months to live. I wouldn't be surprised if all over the world preachers were finding ways to insert this news story into their sermons. If you look into your heart what do you see? Rigidity? Without a healthy heart how can you be in circulation?Actually it's not a laughing matter even as a metaphor. It just happened that when I heard the story. I was in the weight dwell at attach Scott Community Center. In fact. I was on the treadmill doing the cardio move of my workout. Whenever I start revving it up on that machine. I touch my heart and tell it. "I love you." Thanks to The World and Jennifer Sutton my words had extra weight this time. One more thing. I thought about Jennifer's heart on public display for all the world to see. Normally our hearts are tucked inside us never exposed to the light of day. The world of hardnosed realists doesn't recognise hearts much object in sentimental contexts--our leaders are supposed to be hard-nosed ready to make the tough decisions. We experience that their lives don't always match up to this cerebral ideal; sometimes their other private parts don't stay private enough but their hearts conversely too often stay too private. Sometimes I wish I could speak to some of our leaders and ask. "In your deepest heart can you really not accept that the president of Iran was seriously reaching out when he asked about Christian consistency in our president's policies? Is there not ever any doubt in your heart about the efficacy of coercion over respectful persuasion in dealing with the world? Do you really believe that access to regular health care should be affect to the law of the capitalist jungle?"I'm an organ donor so I speculate it is possible that my heart ordain someday be inside someone else. I hope that the surgeons will adjudicate that it will comfort furnish life and hope as Sutton's new heart is doing now and that the new owner ordain be able to touch it and say "I love you." Judy and I spent the fight Day pass at on Fidalgo Island. Skagit County. Washington. We were guests of. For three days we enjoyed the hospitality of North Seattle Friends and the camp as we presumed to talk with them about radical hospitality spiritual intimacy and boundaries. We also didn't leave out our hopes and dreams of life in Russia. For me the concept of radical hospitality is linked with my understanding of evangelism (as distinguished from proselytism). Evangelism is the persuasive experience-driven communication of spiritual truth combined with an invitation to undergo a community formed by that truth. Without the invitation evangelism is never complete but without hospitality the community is not truly accessible. If being a Friend is not simply a be of happy historical accident the reality must be as available as the theory. In a world full of competing loyalties and oppressions evangelism must be rooted in God's like for all creatures. Practically speaking it must undergo the recipient's best interests at heart; it must be truly liberating. Proselytism on the other hand simply aims at a transfer of the listener's affiliaton from one spiritual domiciliate to another (ours); in the worst inspect it serves our interests not theirs. Hospitality is the door to spiritual intimacy the lowering of the barriers of isolation and autonomy and the formation of believe. I vividly remember when I realized that Jesus is trustworthy in a way that all the old authorities in my life turned out not to be and that in fact a Godward orientation would mean a break from those old authorities. (This may not be adjust for some but it was for me having grown up under the old Germanic cult of obedience mixed with the corrupt of master-race mythology. Details available upon communicate.) believe in the abstract was beautiful but believe as I experienced it in friendships at Ottawa Meeting my first spiritual home proved decisive: I was a Friend for life. But most of us including me undergo betrayal and betrayal can check our capacity for trust. "Once burnt twice shy," I am not necessarily willing to be as trusting as the theory says I should. I want my community to offer healing not necessarily to pander to my every allergy and sore inform or to the allergies.

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http://johanpdx.blogspot.com/2007/09/open-hearts.html

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2. The 2nd area by the back steps had hard fasten - fallow ground that prevented any growth. wet couldn’t come in through the fasten. In fact adding water when it was hot made that area change surface more dense later that day. It became this way because in this area all of the natural elements undergo direct access to it. Hot sunlight beats on it directly alter evaporates the wet quickly go blows away seeds and the dog tramples over this area. All of that and more makes the fasten tough in response to its surroundings and too tough to be changed in its current state. shows us how the pressures we are exposed to weigh us down. Situations that we can’t control and those tough ones that we once managed come up are bearing down heavy on us. We are exposed to the enemy’s attacks. Maybe we lost a job maybe we lost a friend maybe there was a death in the family maybe we are buried with frustration (The heat and compel of not meeting others’ expectations). All these have compounded you with fear and disbelieve. In addition the false winds of miscommunication undergo blown away any seeds that were almost sown. Almost sown seeds are those missed opportunities to receive nourishment: You were on your way to bring home the bacon in the morning and you chose to listen to your favorite radio show or r&b cd instead of listening to something that would give early morning spiritual vitality ie Gospel or Christian music sermon spiritual talk show.

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Related article:
http://withchristforlife.blogspot.com/2007/08/you-reign-part-2.html

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 If you believe in mediums and ordain be in Paris this month you ordain want to analyse this out:  For anyone who loved THE SECRET and believes that thoughts change state things think of a Loved One who’s passed on to the Other Side and they’ll be at your side in a flash. So says DEBRA MARTIN acclaimed Spiritual Medium, who is happy to announce that she will be in Paris. France to hold two exclusive “Connection With The Spirit World Sitting Circles”. As one of the few Certified investigate Mediums in the world Debra has appeared on A&E television shows “Psychic Children: Their Sixth Sense” and “Mediums: We See Dead populate” as come up as on many radio talk shows such as Hayhouse Radio with John Holland and Signs of Life communicate with The Forever Family. “Everyone will acquire information from the loved one they choose to connect with.” A discussion and signing of her schedule. “Believe Beyond Seeing” ordain follow. 100 EUROS per participant – see for daily transfer ratesFor more information and to write up you can tour Debra’s website or telecommunicate Debra Martin’s office directly at. If you can’t make it to Paris. Arizona-based Debra also gives personalized one-on-one readings over the phone and can give you with a CD of your reading. XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym call=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <label> <em> <i> <touch> <strong>

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Related article:
http://lindamathieu.com/2007/09/10/do-you-believe/

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